It’s a fact that parenting is difficult for any couple, but when the couple is facing divorce, co-parenting can be their greatest challenge. The couple is in divorce for a reason, so coming to terms and in agreement over large issues like the kids can cause unnecessary stress and turmoil for everyone. And if there’s no parenting plan in place to follow, the relationship between the parents can escalate to a high conflict situation, making life miserable for the kids caught in-between.

In today’s episode, I talk to Brook Olsen, a Certified Parenting Educator, a Certified Divorce Mediator and a Divorce Coach. Brook tells us what a parenting plan is, how it benefits each party involved and the steps to take to avoid conflict when facing divorce with kids. If you are divorced or separated and have kids, this is a must listen!

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India: Welcome to the Divorce Recovery Podcast. My name is India Kern. My intention is to encourage and guide you through the valley of divorce. It doesn’t matter what stage you are in because we all need a little help navigating the road from “married” to “divorced.” I’ve been there and I know how it is, so sit tight, listen up and enjoy the podcast. In today’s episode, I will be talking to Brooke Olsen. Brook founded the High Conflict Diversion Program. He’s the author of the book, “The black hole of high conflict.” Brooke also is a certified parenting educator, a certified divorce mediator and a divorce coach. His training includes 10 years of study in the field of transpersonal counseling, trauma counseling and meditation. So welcome Brooke. How are Ya? I’m glad to have you.

Brooke: I’m good, India. Thanks for having me.

India: Well, good. I’m so thrilled to have you because today as a divorce coach myself, I see how conflict between divorcing parents so adversely affects the children that are caught in between. I think it’s so necessary to have you out there to help these parents move through that, that divorce with the kids in between.

Brooke: Okay. Yeah. The, the high conflict piece is so detrimental to the children. The kids get caught in the middle of the of the fight between the parents and the parents are often just not aware of what they’re doing. They’ve got an agenda with each other. They’re angry. I mean, when people divorce, they’re not divorcing because they’re happy with one another. There’s been something that’s built up or there’s been an incidence that that’s happened that’s caused the breach in the relationship. And typically they’re not, you know, they’re not really interested in, um, shaking hands and moving on.

India: Right, right. Of course. That makes sense. So tell me what a typical client engagement looks like for you. Walk us through that.

Brooke: So, um, when, when clients come to me, they have either been referred by the courts, they’ve been referred by their attorney, or they found me through my website or some of the material that I do. And, um, they’re usually either anticipating a fight over custody typically or they’re in the middle of a fight custody. And some of the people that are in my, um, in my clientele have been victims of domestic violence of different forms of abuse. They’re looking for tools to find their way out from those complexes. So, um, they’ll come to me, they’ll come to my classes and they will work with me too. That a good solid parenting plan. You know, parenting kids are one of the, one of the things that are so needed in every, um, marriage settlement agreement. They are mandatory in them.

India: Well that actually was my next question. What is a parenting plan for our listeners?

Brooke: So a parenting plan lays out virtually everything that the parents are going to do together or not do together. They are the times, the dates of the pickups and drop offs, the time that each parent will have the children, how they’re going to share extracurricular activities. What the restrictions are around travel, um, how they are going to deal with school matters. Um, if somebody wants to move, those are in the parenting plan. So they’re restricted, but really, uh, uh, very, if they’re done properly, they’re a very strong template for the behavior between the two parents and how they are going to share custody with.

India: Right, right. Okay. That makes sense. And it, it sounds like it would be a great resource for especially those that are, have so much conflict between them.

Brooke: Well I would, I would just roll back for a second with that India before you jump forward. Um, without the, without a good template, without a good parenting plan, it is an open wound for conflict to come in and begin to fester. So, um, it’s not just for people that are in high conflict, it’s for people that are looking for, um, well not just looking for, but that have got to have a parenting plan moving forward. And again, it’s something that’s mandatory in every MSA.

India: Right.

Brooke: Yeah. Without it, they’re there. They don’t have the template to do what is needed, when people start just kind of running willy nilly cause they don’t have the boundaries. That’s an opening for conflict to start.

India: Right, of course. Because you’re flying by the seat of your pants. So anyone, I guess, everyone, I should say needs a parenting plan, whether you’re fighting or not. Cause you’re so right, it opens up a door to conflict. So what would you say are your three best tips that you could give divorcing parents or people that are looking, facing divorce and they have children. What are, what are your best tips?

Brooke: Well, I have three rules in my classes are for my clients as well. And the three rules that I have for them are to disengage, to disengage and disengage. And we want parents to co-parent, but again, when people are separating, and especially in the early stages, well the communication between two people, I have a tendency to spark argument, um, and disagreements and things could grow from there. So what I like to have people do is really reduce their contact with the other parent, put it into email, use one of the, um, really good, platforms that are out there online like our family wizard to do their communication and then to learn how to keep that at a minimum. So, yeah, get out of the other person’s life. Don’t try to micromanage.

India: Right.

Brooke: Really concentrate on your own parenting. Um, and the best parent that you can be. And if that’s your focus, the rest of it’s going to find its way.

India: Right.

Brooke: I’m trying to to change the other parent because they do things that you don’t like. That’s probably something that went on in your marriage or in your relationship and it becomes something that, that moves, um, into the post-separation world and it’s just not productive. It just doesn’t get things. Um, moving on. Right. So that, what was the, was it called the parenting wizard? What was that one that you that you just mentioned?

Brooke: It’s called our family wizard.

India: Our family wizard. So tell us more about that because some listeners I’m sure are curious to know what that entails.

Brooke: So there’s several platforms out there, but our family wizard is my favorite. They’d been around for many years. They’ve got lots of, um, tools within their program that helped them. So there’s a scheduling tool in there. So there’s a calendar, so you can mark all of the things that are going on with the kids. You can mark down, um, vacations where, um, where you’re going to go. You can put itineraries in it, but also there’s the day to day scheduling. So you can have doctor’s appointments in there, you can have regular pickup and drop off. So everybody sees what’s there in front of them.

India: Yeah, that’s super smart.

Brooke: And there’s also a, um, there’s also an email platform in there and it’s a secure email platform. You know, what are the things that happens in a high conflict situation that people have learned how to go in and change, um, narratives again in both emails and in text messages. So this is, uh, this has got an email platform that’s secure. They can’t go in. It’s all timestamped, you know, when you set it, you know, when it was seen, um, they’ve got a, um, email alert, so you know, when something comes in. So it really helps people separate from one another and, and communicate in ways that aren’t instantaneous.

India: In healthy ways. It’s healthy communication. Um, so that, that’s a great resource. And then the last question, well maybe not the last question. I have a few more. I want to, I want to know more about, let us, let the listeners know some mistakes to avoid if they are facing divorce and they have kids.

Brooke: Oh, my there are so many landmines. But one of the things that I think is really important I just talked to you about was um, we tried to over-communicate trying to micromanage, you know, being in communication with the other person. The other piece that I think is really important is to check yourself at the door in terms of what’s really bothering you. What’s your anger is because oftentimes, um, parents, angers gets projected onto the children and things are said about the other parent that the children have no business hearing. Um, the children have to get out of the middle of this. And that separation is so important. Um, I have a litmus test for parents.

Brooke: And the litmus test is if what you’re about to do or say puts the children in the middle don’t.

India: DON”T DO IT! That makes sense. That’s good. Um, also you said something when on, I saw you at second Saturday. Um, and you said something that has really stuck with me and you said when the kids are at your ex’s house, it’s their time. Don’t go and call them a million times. Let them be with them and it’s their time. And I thought that’s, you know, that is so smart. Um, because I think as parents, we, we get caught up in, oh, I hope they’re brushing their teeth or I hope they’re you know, got their project done for tomorrow. You know, let the other parent deal with that. It is their time and it’s their time to be a parent. So that’s one of my biggest takeaways that you said at one of the second Saturdays. So I’m, I just wanted to, to point that out because I thought it was so, so smart.

Brooke: Yeah. There’s another point to that too. And it’s not just the other person’s time with the children. It’s your time alone to refresh yourself and to go have some fun and to socialize and to do the things that you don’t have time to do when the children are with you. So when the children come back to your home, your refreshed ready or on point and you’re ready to be the best parents you can.

India: Yeah. And that’s, that’s so key as well. So, um, I want to tell the listeners how they can get in touch with you. So please give us some information about yourself, where they can find you, websites, et cetera.

Brooke: Okay. So people can contact me through my email. My direct email is brooke@highconflict.net I have a book out “The Black Hole of High Conflict” so they can get material from there. I have a podcast -The High Conflict Co-parenting Podcast. And um, I also have a website. The website is www.highconflict.net and all of our information is there. A, there’s a lot of, um, there’s a lot of material there for people to peruse through and get information on.

India: Oh, great. That wraps up the divorce recovery podcast. But I want to thank you, Brooke, for being my guest because I believe the work you’re doing is making a huge impact in society, especially with our divorce rate being half or even sometimes more than half, the kids that are caught in the middle desperately need an advocate and you are just that. So I want to thank you for being that because I think you’re an important part of our community and a big thank you to my listeners for tuning in, you can always find me at my website, www.indiakern.com or email connect@indiakern.com. Thank you for tuning in and have a beautiful day.

Brooke: Thank you for having me India.

India: Thank you Brooke.