First, I ‘m going to be completely transparent with you, and admit it took me an extremely long time to find forgiveness for my ex-husband. I will not go into the details of why, but I will say I went through some dark days (more like years) where I was full of anger for what was done to me. Maybe this is also true for you. Or maybe you’re in the thick of it right now, caught in the vice-grips of pain and cannot even imagine forgiving the person that hurt you so deeply. In this episode, Pastor Paul Cunningham sheds light on the heavy topic of forgiveness. What is “forgiveness,” and what does it look like? Listen to a pastor’s perspective on his spiritual approach to forgiveness.

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India: Welcome to the divorce recovery podcast. My name is India Kern. My intention is to encourage and guide you through the valley of divorce. It doesn’t matter what stage you are in because we all need a little help navigating the road from married to divorced. I’ve been there and I know how it is. So sit tight, listen up and enjoy the podcast. Welcome listeners. Today we have a special guest on the divorce recovery podcast. His name is Paul Cunningham and he’s the pastor at La Jolla Presbyterian church, which happens to be my church as well. Today we’ll be discussing the topic of forgiveness. I feel like this is a loaded topic because so many of us, especially in divorce, have felt wronged and forgiveness can be extremely difficult to attain. It’s hard work, but I want to get a pastor’s perspective on forgiveness. So welcome Pastor Paul and thank you for taking the time to help us understand forgiveness. Before we start, could you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself?

Pastor Paul: Sure. Uh, so I grew up in Fresno, California, and, um, wanting to go into business. And so I got a finance degree from Santa Clara University and realized after that, that that really wasn’t my calling. And eventually I started doing youth ministry and felt called to go to seminary and I went to Princeton for seminary and was a pastor in Texas for 12 years and then our family moved to La Jolla 12 years ago.

India: All right. All right. So let’s just dive in to this. So number one, the biggest question I have for you, it probably the most loaded question. What exactly is forgiveness and how would you define forgiveness?

Pastor Paul: I think, you know, thinking of it from a Biblical perspective, it’s this idea of figuring out, how do we let go of something, you know, in the, in the New Testament when they talk about forgiveness, it’s often in terms of thinking about debts or trespasses so that the image is kind of a, a financial issue that someone has wronged you financially. And then how do you let go of that? But I think as we think about it, you know, from the church perspective, Christian perspective, even just overall perspective, um, and even in marriage and divorce, it’s how do we let go of something, where we have felt wronged. And I think that that’s such a, it’s so easy to say that we want to let go of something. But it’s so much harder to practice that

India: that is the truth, I know from experience. Um, and that’s, that leads into our next question. So if you have been wronged, especially since I’m talking to a lot of people that are either facing divorce or are going through the divorce process, when you’re still bitter and raw and emotionally scarred from the event, how do you even begin the process of forgiving that person? What’s your advice? Like where do you start?

Pastor Paul: I think that’s a really good question. I think it’s, it’s such a hard question and I think it is, I think about that it’s, recognizing then order from… It’s kind of narcissistic, which is not always the greatest thing, but it’s really the sense of, for me to be a healthy person. I really have to figure out how do I start thinking about forgiveness? How do I even start speaking, even
internally, let alone externally, that I really want to begin that process of forgiving. I’m a person that tries to journal on a regular basis. And so I know that I’m even writing out those words of, you know, God I’m trying to figure out how to forgive or I’m barely able to speak this person’s name for what they have actually done to me. But I think in terms of, from what I see, it is if I want to truly be a healthy person, I have to figure out how to forgive. And so I really have to think about myself even before I even think about the other person and what they’ve done. But just for my own self health.

India: Right? Cause it really is for you more than the other person.

Pastor Paul: Absolutely.

India: So does forgiveness mean you exonerate the person from this so-called infraction? I mean how do you feel about that?

Pastor Paul: Yeah, I think that that’s you. You do have to get to this point where you’re saying, I’m going to let go whatever it is that you have done to me. And, and I think that that’s, I was thinking about this that years ago when I was doing camping ministry, there was a guy who really wronged me, who said some things, who acted in some ways that really hurt me to the core of, of who I am. And it was so hard to think about why in the world would he do this? And so the ironic thing was at about four years later, he applied to this camp where I had been to be on our staff and I had the ability to either hire him or not hire him.

India: Oh, wow.

Pastor Paul: And it was interesting in my own mind of like, well, I would love to just get back at him and not hire him. Right. Even though he was totally qualified for the position that we were looking for. And so, you know, eventually I realized that I was being selfish of saying I’m not going to, you know, not hire, I’m not going to hire him because of what he did to me four years previously. And so, you know, we made the decision to hire him.

India: Okay. Yeah.

Pastor Paul: But then throughout the summer for 10 weeks, I had to see him, I had to interact with him. And so I guess in a sense of saying, you know, I feel like I exonerated what he did. And what he had said and how it, it made me feel,

India: I mean you definitely had to practice forgiveness while you were working with him for 10 weeks.

Pastor Paul: That’s right. Yeah. And it’d be the bigger person or more mature person. And um, so yeah, so I think you can, but I think that, that, that exoneration is, I think about the is really a sign of our own maturity that we can get to that place and that’s a struggle. I mean it’s, I would think, you know, divorce and

India: yeah, it is. Yeah. Because some, you know, things people do, some really evil acts against each other. So yeah, exactly. That was a good example. Speaking of another example, I saw this video on forgiveness. It was on Facebook and I posted on my page the divorce recovery Facebook page. But the woman, she’s a woman of God cause she wears the clerical collar, but she talks about forgiveness and she says that when someone does you harm, you’re then connected to that person, so it’s like there’s this symbolic chain between you two that links you together. But she also warns be careful not to absorb the worst of that person. And in her opinion, forgiveness is symbolically cutting like with bolt cutters, that chain that links you two together. And she says it’s not a pansy move. It’s not a sign of weakness, but rather it’s saying, now I refuse to be connected to you anymore. And so as this free person, then you are no longer controlled by the past. And then this makes you able to become the light that shines in the darkness. And I know there’s, I’m sure there’s a verse on that that I can’t quote that you can, but I thought that was an excellent illustration of what forgiveness looks like. Her imagery of cutting the chain illustrates how forgiveness is a choice. And that’s what my next question is. Do you feel that way? Do you feel forgiveness is a choice?

Pastor Paul: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it’s a choice that, , that doesn’t come easily because I think in even particularly in your context that you’re in a divorce, I mean, you are, the image she used I think is helpful in the sense of you cut the chain, but yet you still oftentimes have to interact with you have to interact with your ex and kids. And how does that, um, how does that actually happen? And so I think that that’s the bigger struggle as we think about, you know, to forgive someone who you don’t see often is one thing and you can kind of cut that chain. But I think that, I think where her image is so helpful is that to continue to not forgive, you’re doing so much more damage to yourself. And I think that that’s the, the beauty of forgiveness is that it does allow you to free up who I believe God has truly intended you to be. And when you continue to allow that chain to be connected, what I always tell people try to see is you’re allowing the other person to have power over you, which is, which is worse for you. I mean, it’s like you’re out of control and then you let this other person have power over you. So I think that that idea of severing, however, a person draws that up for themselves is really a helpful image.

India: Right and I know that you always, yeah, disconnecting actually. Uh, I know that you love Nelson Mandela. You used his quotes a lot. Well, I found a quote that would be perfect here. And um, he says, “As I walked out the door toward freedom, I knew that if I did not leave all the anger, hatred and bitterness behind that, I would still be in prison.” So it really is, if you choose
not to forgive, essentially you’re creating your own personal prison. And I think a pope said that, but you hold the keys. Would you agree with that?

Pastor Paul: I think it’s a great question. I think that, um, you know, Mandela is such a great example of how are you imprisoned for, you know, 25, 27 years, whatever it was, and yet you’re still able to walk out, um, and forgive and work on reconciliation. And I think that that’s, um, that’s uh, you know, that is a sign of maturity and I always, you know, a friend of mine who’s a clinical psychologist said, he said that in his mind he said, the greatest sign of maturity is showing, um, how to love and to be loved and that both of those things really have to work together and that, that unconditional love of, of that that’s, you know, we know we’ve, we’re kind of reaching the place where we want to be when we can truly love others unconditionally and let them love us for who we are.

India: What if the offender shows absolutely zero remorse and you’re still connected to them?

Pastor Paul: Yeah.

India: I mean think that meaning that you still have to interact, not necessarily the chains, I think. I think in a situation like divorce, the chains are a, you have these chains you cut, but then you also, when you see them again, sometimes those chains reattach and then you have to cut. So it’s a continuous cycle of you separating yourself or cutting the chains. So when they don’t show any remorse, how does that work? What do you, what do you think about that?

Pastor Paul: I think that’s really hard because I think that, um, I think that most people assume that when we show forgiveness or we extend forgiveness, that people will receive that and change or will recognize how they have wronged us and they’ll want to change their lives. I think for me as a pastor and as I think about my own faith, which I noticed is part of what I know, not I run in your who’s listening as of of faith. But I know for me it’s, this as I think about it, it is this idea that God has forgiven me and has forgiven all of us. And yet some people choose not to receive that forgiveness and choose to just keep doing their own thing. And I don’t know if I have a great answer for this other than it just keeps coming back to me of, of that I want to be a personally a healthy person.

India: Right.

Pastor Paul: And so even if that other person that, um, shows, I mean this guy I was talking about camp, you know, from years and years and years ago, he never showed any remorse. You know, or even probably really recognize what he had done. Um, but it made me, I was, I felt like I was a spiritually healthier person for what I had done. Um, and I think we can’t go in expecting, I
think forgiveness is forgiveness. We can’t have, you know, I, I don’t think, I think a lot of times where you’re like, well, I’ll conditionally forgive. You know, it’s like, it’s like our love like our love is conditional and based on certain things and I’m gonna forgive you, but if you keep doing what you’re doing or you showing no remorse, then I’m really not going to forgive him. And I think that that’s, so again, it, it, it, I think forgiveness, the hard thing of it is, it is, it puts all the burden on us. You know, that we’re the ones that have to forgive. We’re the ones that we’re the ones that suffer. I mean to forgive is, you know, we’re taking on the suffering that a person may keep doing everything they’ve always been doing and messing it up as bad as I’ve always messed it up and we have to sit there and watch that.

India: Right. I think you hit it on the head when you said it makes us healthy when we forgive the other person. How do you know when you have truly forgiven someone?

Pastor Paul: I think there is this sense that um, you stopped digging up the past. I think about like, you know, when, when people get, you know, in the old days they would have buried, they’d get their treasure and then they’d go bury it. And I think a lot of times with our, um, resentment and anger, we kind of bury it and then we go out and we dig it all up again and we look at it and we are like, I still can’t stand this person. I’m still so angry with this person. I’m still so frustrated with this person. And I think when we can stop digging all that stuff up, I think that’s a sign that we’re, you know, we’re, we’ve moved to truly forgiving someone. And I don’t know, I guess there’s a part of me that also wonder to amaze my own lack of maturity. Like, do we ever get that point where we truly completely forgive and forget, you know, cause I think that that is, our memories plays such a role in that,

India: I know. And we are so triggered so easily.

Pastor Paul: that’s exactly what I was going to say it’s, I feel like there are these triggers that even at, so I get the point where I’m not digging it up anymore, but then I’m in a conversation or something happens or my, you know, kids or friends or whatever, say something and it triggers something and it’s like, okay God, you know, for me it’s like you gotta you gotta push this.

India: Let it go.

Pastor Paul: And, and I just think that’s a really, I think it’s a process. I don’t know, you know, it’s always this idea of forgive and forget, which I’m like, I just think that that’s not really, that’s not a real life reality for, for most people.

India: Honestly. Um, you know, someone described it or I heard it described once, that forgiveness is when you can think of the other person and want that person to be well off. You think, well thoughts. And I was like, that is a good way to put it.

Pastor Paul: I think that’s, and I think that that’s, you know, in the New Testament Jesus talks about, you know, how many times he’s asked, how many times should we forgive? Seven. Peter says seven times? And Jesus, you know, no 70 times seven or 777 translated different ways. But, um, what he’s driving at there when he says that is, you know, it’s about wholeness. It’s about that 70 times seven. I mean, seven is the whole number. It’s the complete number in scripture. And so it’s saying, you know, you have to keep doing it.

India: It’s like a, it’s not perfection. It’s a practice.You know, you continually forgive. I love that quote. Well, that’s a great thing. That’s a great verse to end on. So listeners, I hope we shed some light on forgiveness, giving you a different, a spiritual perspective to ponder. Also, I want to add that even though you may feel as if you’ve been wronged somehow the offense doesn’t negate the goodness that you may have once shared with that person. Especially when it comes to divorce. You can still hold onto the positive memories even if all traces of the good times have completely vanished. In fact, this is a dilemma that many of my clients struggle with. They are deeply hurt and when they look back on their lives and see that there were in fact good times, it’s difficult to reconcile the contradiction when the divorce happens and they are hurting so deeply. Many times saying, was my life a sham or was it all a lie? But I really want you to hear this. Just because the marriage ended doesn’t mean you cannot hold a place for the sweet memories. They once existed no matter how badly the marriage ended and the day you’re able to cherish, the good memories is a huge sign of healing because it’s separating the bad behavior from the person, which is a huge part of forgiveness. So I just wanted to tell my listeners that, because I see it come up a lot and if there’s anything you want to add to that, please do.

Pastor Paul: I, I think this, you know, I, I just think the topic of forgiveness is such a timely issue for our society in our world and in where we are today. And you know, with marriages, with kids, with relationships that are, that are fractured. And as you’ve said, and as I said as well, I just think that deep down we want to be healthy, happy content people, and to not be able to forgive really hinders that. And so if you think about how God, you know, God forgives us. God reconciles himself to us. Um, we want to do the same sort of thing and be as reconciled as we can and to lead that another person to figure out what that’s going to eventually look like.

India: Right. Well, thank you, pastor Paul for, for doing this podcast. I really appreciate your time. And I want to announce to the listeners that you can always reach out to me at connect@indiakern.com Also, know that I offer a 30 minute free phone consultation. So take advantage. You have nothing to lose. And I again, I hope we shed some light on this big subject of forgiveness. I hope you have a beautiful day and thank you for listening.